1 00:00:01,290 --> 00:00:07,770 Yes, well, welcome to the first, what are we calling this? Open 2 00:00:07,770 --> 00:00:15,300 access symposium symposium, so we will have many talks to come, 3 00:00:15,330 --> 00:00:18,660 but we're going to lead off with this august panel. And I'm very 4 00:00:18,660 --> 00:00:22,020 excited because we've gained a number here just a moment, but 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:29,160 I'll do just a quick little introduction here. Janet. Some 6 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,030 of you don't know, even though you worked in the library, about 7 00:00:33,030 --> 00:00:35,940 some of the really cool things that Janet does. So this is your 8 00:00:35,940 --> 00:00:39,240 chance. Janet Brennan Croft is an associate university 9 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,000 librarian at the University of Northern Iowa. You knew that 10 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,660 part. She is [inaudible] you know what? We're not recording. 11 00:00:46,260 --> 00:00:51,960 Oh, timeout, was practice now we're really going. Yes now. 12 00:00:52,470 --> 00:00:54,630 They can still hear you, they just can't see you. 13 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:55,770 Or are we recording? 14 00:00:55,770 --> 00:00:56,340 Yeah, you're recording. 15 00:01:00,950 --> 00:01:03,500 You can edit that part out if you'd like. Okay, so anyway, 16 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:08,330 back to Janet. Janet is the author of "War in the Works of 17 00:01:08,330 --> 00:01:11,750 J. R. R. Tolkien", has also written on Buffy the Vampire 18 00:01:11,750 --> 00:01:16,790 Slayer, Orphan Black, J. K. Rowling, Terry Pratchett, Lois 19 00:01:17,090 --> 00:01:22,670 McMaster Bujold, old, Bujold, and other authors, TV shows and 20 00:01:22,670 --> 00:01:25,850 movies and is the editor or coeditor of many collections of 21 00:01:25,850 --> 00:01:29,570 literary essays, most recently 'War Masters in Libraries and 22 00:01:29,570 --> 00:01:33,140 Fantasy and Science Fiction' with Jason Fisher. She edits the 23 00:01:33,140 --> 00:01:36,110 refereed scholarly journal 'Mythlore', and is the assistant 24 00:01:36,140 --> 00:01:40,910 editor of 'Slayage', and don't play Dungeons Dragons with her. 25 00:01:40,910 --> 00:01:44,660 I know, I know. Anyway, Andre, if you would, I'll let you 26 00:01:44,690 --> 00:01:47,420 introduce yourself and your colleagues for a moment. 27 00:01:47,930 --> 00:01:50,930 Yes, [inaudible] definitely important, because usually like 28 00:01:50,930 --> 00:01:52,520 a red thing. 29 00:01:52,580 --> 00:01:53,270 Go to the 30 00:01:55,070 --> 00:02:01,580 screen sharing. That's to make sure we don't have to go over 31 00:02:01,580 --> 00:02:03,380 things again. I know. 32 00:02:05,910 --> 00:02:07,230 There's always like, yeah, 33 00:02:08,500 --> 00:02:09,040 Okay, good. 34 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:10,960 We're gonna have all these interesting [inaudible] 35 00:02:16,570 --> 00:02:20,650 All right. Thank you very much. It's a great pleasure to be 36 00:02:20,650 --> 00:02:25,780 invited to start the meeting and talk about about an interesting 37 00:02:25,780 --> 00:02:27,610 topic that a lot of us have different connections on. My 38 00:02:27,610 --> 00:02:30,670 name is Andrew Petrov. I'm the director of the Arctic Center at 39 00:02:30,670 --> 00:02:33,280 the University of Northern Ireland, Professor of Geography, 40 00:02:33,550 --> 00:02:39,880 been here for a while. And I guess my work is in the area of 41 00:02:40,090 --> 00:02:42,940 Arctic studies and sustainability, economic 42 00:02:42,970 --> 00:02:47,620 development, and climate change and things like that, that deal 43 00:02:47,620 --> 00:02:50,140 with the Arctic, a very hot topic, so and 44 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:55,720 No pun intended, right. Between us in Exactly, exactly. 45 00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:01,900 And also was working on quite a few of the federally funded 46 00:03:01,930 --> 00:03:06,880 projects on grants, which are, in fact, requiring open equity 47 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:11,290 allocation. I think that's, that's an important topic for me 48 00:03:11,830 --> 00:03:17,620 to discuss as well as involved in editing and open access. Like 49 00:03:17,620 --> 00:03:19,750 a guest, they've evolved over the next year or so that's 50 00:03:19,750 --> 00:03:22,930 really something that doubled the scientific scientific 51 00:03:22,930 --> 00:03:25,840 community minds how we could do that. So that's my perspective 52 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,890 here. And I'm very happy to introduce Dr. Lassi Heininen, 53 00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:34,060 who happens to be on campus for these two days. And he is a 54 00:03:34,060 --> 00:03:37,450 professor emeritus here to Lapland, and wears a lot of 55 00:03:37,750 --> 00:03:44,530 other hats, including the leader of the the, the network on 56 00:03:46,210 --> 00:03:50,080 security directly related to the Arctic. But most importantly, 57 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:54,910 here is actually the chief editor of the open access 58 00:03:54,910 --> 00:03:59,380 publication called 'Arctic Yearbook', that maybe maybe is a 59 00:03:59,380 --> 00:04:02,170 model that they would like to discuss how things could be done 60 00:04:02,230 --> 00:04:07,180 without getting into the dark side of the open access, they 61 00:04:07,180 --> 00:04:10,630 can actually do things that are available that are useful and 62 00:04:10,630 --> 00:04:15,400 usable and being used. But also providing them with info, 63 00:04:15,940 --> 00:04:18,280 various kinds of authors, including characters, scholars, 64 00:04:20,140 --> 00:04:24,640 will be very appropriate and biochem. Join us because he is 65 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:29,710 an actual department on the editor side of things. So that's 66 00:04:29,710 --> 00:04:30,220 that's 67 00:04:31,110 --> 00:04:34,920 Well, and speaking of the dark side, that is a good launching 68 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,110 point, because we're going to start with doom and gloom. 69 00:04:37,110 --> 00:04:41,010 First, we're going to talk about maybe a little bit of what goes 70 00:04:41,010 --> 00:04:46,350 wrong when Open Access gets abused just a little bit. It's 71 00:04:46,350 --> 00:04:48,780 going to be about Predatory publishing. My name is Chris 72 00:04:48,780 --> 00:04:52,380 Neuhaus. Those of you who don't know me really well, I am 73 00:04:52,590 --> 00:04:56,850 generally my title 'library guy'. I'm basically here to sort 74 00:04:56,850 --> 00:05:00,630 of save lives while people are researching. Dive into all sorts 75 00:05:00,630 --> 00:05:03,840 of different disciplines. But my actual interest within this 76 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:08,220 field is really human-computer interactions of more 77 00:05:08,220 --> 00:05:11,070 particularly issues of information. And this is 78 00:05:11,070 --> 00:05:14,310 certainly one of them. And I'll give you kind of a really quick 79 00:05:14,310 --> 00:05:19,080 history on this. Predatory publishing hasn't really been in 80 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,780 the news all that long, and it hasn't really been researched 81 00:05:21,780 --> 00:05:26,550 per all that long. But well, let's see if this will work is 82 00:05:27,540 --> 00:05:28,350 the short trip. 83 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,450 Oh, really [inaudible]? Okay, so, editorial 84 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:37,920 publishing, really, as a concept came out about the same time 85 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,280 that open access came out maybe just a little bit later, there 86 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:43,440 are a number of different types of open access, I'm not going to 87 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,410 go into details on those because I think these folks will do 88 00:05:46,410 --> 00:05:51,900 that. But one form of open access involves a researcher 89 00:05:52,050 --> 00:05:55,620 paying the publisher to get the article published. The other, of 90 00:05:55,620 --> 00:05:58,770 course, involves squeezing the library really tight and seeing 91 00:05:58,770 --> 00:06:01,680 if they will pay for it. But there is a third version. And 92 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,820 that's where we nobody gets paid, well, somebody gets paid. 93 00:06:05,820 --> 00:06:13,830 But the gold access version of, of open access involves people 94 00:06:13,860 --> 00:06:17,370 paying the publisher, well, that's probably well and good, a 95 00:06:17,370 --> 00:06:21,390 big journal like Public Library of Science when one that that's 96 00:06:21,540 --> 00:06:24,450 very expensive to publishing, but also really well regarded, 97 00:06:24,570 --> 00:06:28,470 that seems to work fairly well, unless you're a poor publisher, 98 00:06:28,470 --> 00:06:30,750 and then you have to come up with the money. But what has 99 00:06:30,780 --> 00:06:35,580 started to happen and what was first documented, really about 100 00:06:35,580 --> 00:06:41,490 through mid 2000, maybe 6-7-8, by someone named Jeffrey Beall 101 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,160 at the University of Colorado was that a number of people 102 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,460 realized that they could claim they were publishers, get people 103 00:06:47,460 --> 00:06:51,960 to send them one or $2,000, possibly even stick it on a 104 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,620 website, and claim that they've done everything that a publisher 105 00:06:55,620 --> 00:07:00,930 would do. This became a bit alarming to Jeffrey Beal, and 106 00:07:01,020 --> 00:07:03,630 after a while, it became alarming to the rest of the 107 00:07:03,630 --> 00:07:07,320 scholarly community. And I've got just a couple of quick 108 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,320 definitions of what what a predatory journal is but 109 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,850 essentially, it's somebody or group or person masquerading as 110 00:07:14,850 --> 00:07:18,870 a publisher, very happy to collect the fees, not so happy 111 00:07:18,870 --> 00:07:23,580 to actually [inaudible] hear things maybe no editor, maybe 112 00:07:23,580 --> 00:07:27,000 they might claim there's people on the editor, editorial boards, 113 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,300 effective claims certain Nobel Prize winners, not, they never 114 00:07:30,300 --> 00:07:32,490 called them up to ask them if they wanted to be on there, they 115 00:07:32,490 --> 00:07:36,540 just put them on the website. And so that has created a little 116 00:07:36,540 --> 00:07:41,400 bit of a worry, in fact, it created a lot of worry. Back in 117 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,530 2018, Jeffrey Beall started from the website, after about three 118 00:07:46,530 --> 00:07:50,160 or four years that sort of got picked up by others. And you can 119 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,480 kind of see how things took off. This was his list, he actually 120 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,480 did this just as a sort of a, I think we've got a bit of a worry 121 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,140 here. And so he started to publish a list of I think these 122 00:08:01,140 --> 00:08:05,250 folks are problematic, they're not, they're not in the normal 123 00:08:05,250 --> 00:08:08,550 indexes, then they're very happy to to take money, they doesn't 124 00:08:08,580 --> 00:08:11,880 appear that they actually have an editorial staff. In fact, it 125 00:08:11,910 --> 00:08:15,330 doesn't really even appear to be associated with any association, 126 00:08:15,660 --> 00:08:21,120 were worried about these. Problem was Mr. Beall got very 127 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,930 aggressive in his list making. And he made a really big list 128 00:08:24,930 --> 00:08:27,780 that occasionally included someone that maybe shouldn't 129 00:08:27,780 --> 00:08:33,090 have been on the list. And there began to be threats of lawsuits, 130 00:08:33,270 --> 00:08:36,750 and other similar actions and the University of Colorado said 131 00:08:36,750 --> 00:08:43,860 they didn't want to deal with that. And so in 2017, Jeffrey 132 00:08:43,860 --> 00:08:48,570 Beall took the list down now that list is still out there 133 00:08:48,570 --> 00:08:52,380 floating around in archive space. And in fact, unknown 134 00:08:52,380 --> 00:08:55,860 people continue to add to that match dot hasn't been updated in 135 00:08:55,860 --> 00:09:02,100 about a year. So yeah, is this a good thing or a bad thing? It's 136 00:09:02,100 --> 00:09:05,820 a thing. But one of the other questions I had when I was asked 137 00:09:05,820 --> 00:09:08,160 to talk on this was, does anybody even care about 138 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:12,150 predatory journals? That was so 2015, so 2016, 2017, I would be 139 00:09:12,150 --> 00:09:14,820 still worried about that. So I did a little bit of an 140 00:09:14,820 --> 00:09:18,540 experiment went out and just kind of take a look to see well, 141 00:09:18,540 --> 00:09:22,980 how many people in Google Scholar year to year to year are 142 00:09:22,980 --> 00:09:25,440 talking about this? And it was I did a title search so it had to 143 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,730 be you know, the topic is predatory journals. And really 144 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:34,950 since about 2017, about 100 scholarly somethings could be 145 00:09:34,950 --> 00:09:37,530 conference presentations, they could be journals, and they 146 00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:41,220 could be books, but there are a lot coming out. I even checked 147 00:09:41,220 --> 00:09:44,730 our own beloved One Search, the library database, and I asked 148 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:51,180 just for predatory journals show up as a as a phrase in a peer 149 00:09:51,180 --> 00:09:53,940 reviewed journal. So I was a little pickier this time, but it 150 00:09:53,940 --> 00:09:56,520 really mimics what Google Scholar does on that as well. So 151 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,900 for the last four or five years, it's been a pretty hot topic, a 152 00:10:00,900 --> 00:10:04,410 little dipping off here in the last year, but still something 153 00:10:04,410 --> 00:10:08,250 fairly major. And then I checked Nexis Uni, which is basically 154 00:10:08,250 --> 00:10:11,880 what is people saying in the news? So is the news covering 155 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,370 this? Well, the news really got excited about this. I think it 156 00:10:14,370 --> 00:10:17,130 got really excited when Jeff Beall got himself in trouble 157 00:10:17,340 --> 00:10:20,490 with things. It was like, wow, you know, this is this is this 158 00:10:20,490 --> 00:10:23,640 is a problem. And then that all got resolved. And it's still 159 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:28,080 there. But it's not quite as popular topic in the news as it 160 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:29,130 once was. 161 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:35,060 So, is there a problem? Well, apparently a lot of researchers 162 00:10:35,060 --> 00:10:38,780 things. So it's a little more complex on this, and I will talk 163 00:10:38,780 --> 00:10:44,120 about that towards the end. But what about for us? Do we have to 164 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,240 worry about this sort of? I suppose it's like anything on 165 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,550 the internet? Do I have to worry when I go on the internet? I 166 00:10:49,550 --> 00:10:52,730 think most of us at this point? The answer is yes, of course you 167 00:10:52,730 --> 00:10:55,880 do. What about things that come in my email? Yes, I think you 168 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,430 have to worry about those as well. Our IT department is 169 00:10:58,670 --> 00:11:01,550 always a little frustrated that we don't worry enough about all 170 00:11:01,550 --> 00:11:04,610 the spamming and the viruses and things that come through. But I 171 00:11:04,610 --> 00:11:07,880 think you might consider predatory journals to be one of 172 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,790 many, many, many sorts of things, you can run a foul up. 173 00:11:11,990 --> 00:11:16,130 Or you can try some better practices in one of these is 174 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:21,050 well then how do I avoid predatory journals? I think one 175 00:11:21,050 --> 00:11:25,070 of the things one can do is just be familiar with those major 176 00:11:25,460 --> 00:11:28,640 journals in your field, we've got a couple of systems that 177 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,870 have been around for a while, I mean, the the old conservative 178 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:37,040 list, the Journal Citation Reports, this is this is those 179 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,400 that have been around for a good long time. Some of these are a 180 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,350 little harder to get published in if you're not well 181 00:11:42,350 --> 00:11:45,320 established, like maybe these gentlemen here, you might have a 182 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,470 little trouble getting into some of those if you are new, or if 183 00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:52,250 your research was was pretty good, it's a little more work. 184 00:11:52,250 --> 00:11:56,090 And then you might drop down to this second alternative set, 185 00:11:56,090 --> 00:11:59,990 this is a little larger that the SCImago list on that. Uses 186 00:11:59,990 --> 00:12:02,690 slightly different metrics on that, although they do 187 00:12:02,690 --> 00:12:07,610 correlate, and the SCImago list covers a lot more international 188 00:12:07,610 --> 00:12:10,940 terms, then it covers a lot more open access on that. And so one 189 00:12:10,940 --> 00:12:14,360 might take a look at that I tossed in this other item by 190 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,560 Scopus, it's yet one more to consider. So that's one route to 191 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:23,150 go. However, what about bringing journals nutrients through just 192 00:12:23,150 --> 00:12:25,910 came out last year that you're in in some of our fields bar 193 00:12:25,970 --> 00:12:29,360 fields, the field itself is evolving so rapidly, that it's 194 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,570 natural that new journals would come out, these may have a 195 00:12:32,570 --> 00:12:36,290 little trouble getting a hold of those. So, so one of the other 196 00:12:36,290 --> 00:12:40,550 things you might take a look at would be the Directory of Open 197 00:12:40,550 --> 00:12:44,240 Access Journals. Now I say that with just a little caution, 198 00:12:44,270 --> 00:12:47,510 because there are some out there in the world that believe that 199 00:12:47,510 --> 00:12:52,760 DOAJ doesn't do as great a job as it can. Others are very, very 200 00:12:52,940 --> 00:12:56,900 much behind them on that. I've included a couple of we will 201 00:12:56,900 --> 00:12:59,630 wander off to this. But these are just some of the sorts of 202 00:12:59,630 --> 00:13:03,140 articles that DOAJ's had to put out saying like, yeah, you guys, 203 00:13:03,140 --> 00:13:06,140 you've given us a real bad rap. Because once upon a time, way 204 00:13:06,140 --> 00:13:10,730 back in 2014, a couple of things crept in. And yeah, that 205 00:13:10,730 --> 00:13:14,120 shouldn't have been there. We got them out. But we still seem 206 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,540 to get picked on for that. That [inaudible] there. Is it 207 00:13:17,540 --> 00:13:19,940 possible that occasionally something creeps in? I'm sure it 208 00:13:19,940 --> 00:13:24,380 could. My suspicion is DOAJ does a much better job than say 209 00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:29,210 Facebook or Twitter at removing unwanted visitors. You don't get 210 00:13:29,210 --> 00:13:31,880 quite the traffic that that would help. But that's that's 211 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:36,110 one route to go as well. Another is there's plenty of 212 00:13:36,110 --> 00:13:39,080 organizations, some of you who are really into open access will 213 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:45,080 know the SPARC folks here but folks up in Canada, those who 214 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,170 hang with libraries, know, know, this this university library 215 00:13:48,170 --> 00:13:54,980 organization, for for, for our field, and it's an individual 216 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,140 University Library, that's into this. But there are a number of 217 00:13:57,140 --> 00:14:01,220 people that will give directions or sort of a rubric or a step by 218 00:14:01,220 --> 00:14:06,950 step hey, here's how to not make a mistake. And it really boils 219 00:14:06,950 --> 00:14:10,400 down to a couple of basic things. You've maybe published 220 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,620 something recently, somebody notices you published something 221 00:14:12,620 --> 00:14:16,160 recently, you'll get emails from publishers you've never heard of 222 00:14:16,190 --> 00:14:20,480 before. Be cautious. I suppose the same thing would happen if 223 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,700 you won the lottery, you would hear from people you've never 224 00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:25,550 heard of before wanting to sell your things. Well, these people 225 00:14:25,790 --> 00:14:28,370 want to sell you something they want to sell you access in their 226 00:14:28,370 --> 00:14:34,190 open access journal, and maybe they need a little inspection. 227 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,760 And so with something like that, a number of these, these people 228 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,240 argue and say, well look, if it's somebody new, were they 229 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,600 associated with, you could be a very legitimate journal 230 00:14:44,690 --> 00:14:48,710 associated with an organization that's recognized. You could 231 00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:52,520 call that organization and say, hey, you know, if I know that 232 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,740 organization, what do you think about this group? We're good, 233 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,980 we're good. We know these people. If it's someone we don't 234 00:14:57,980 --> 00:15:00,860 know. That becomes more problematic. If it's someone we 235 00:15:00,860 --> 00:15:06,110 don't know, and their process is really messy, or they claim 236 00:15:06,110 --> 00:15:09,200 things that are a little fuzzy, that's more problematic. My 237 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,950 recommendation is if you're not sure, have a librarian anywhere 238 00:15:12,950 --> 00:15:16,190 near you, or up or in the world, get a hold of them. We're really 239 00:15:16,190 --> 00:15:19,100 good at trying to track those sorts of things down, and maybe 240 00:15:19,130 --> 00:15:21,620 other colleagues in the field, have you heard of these people? 241 00:15:22,430 --> 00:15:25,130 Best not to believe anything, that's too good to be true. But 242 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,850 again, you don't want to unfairly punish the new journals 243 00:15:28,850 --> 00:15:33,740 that are out there. And that's actually where I'm going to sort 244 00:15:33,740 --> 00:15:37,310 of finish up for a little bit on this. People have really jumped 245 00:15:37,310 --> 00:15:41,690 on the idea that woah, predatory journals are so awful, and that 246 00:15:41,690 --> 00:15:44,360 sort of crept into this idea that, well, they wouldn't be 247 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,810 there if it wasn't for open access. So maybe open access 248 00:15:47,810 --> 00:15:52,250 isn't so good. And some people even question whether Jeff Beall 249 00:15:52,250 --> 00:15:56,270 himself was leading, not a big fan of open access, some of that 250 00:15:56,270 --> 00:15:59,300 coming. I think it's somewhere in the middle on this, but you 251 00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:03,920 will find a number of people who are really concerned that in 252 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,550 certain parts of the world are unfairly punished. If you were 253 00:16:07,550 --> 00:16:10,580 starting a new journal in India, for instance, you probably are 254 00:16:10,580 --> 00:16:14,330 going to come under more scrutiny than you would if you 255 00:16:14,330 --> 00:16:19,280 well, published in the Western world. Is that fair? Not fair. 256 00:16:20,210 --> 00:16:25,220 Well, those folks will will go at length on that. So anyway, if 257 00:16:25,220 --> 00:16:29,120 you're curious about this, or if you're curious about how to tell 258 00:16:29,270 --> 00:16:34,610 what sort of relative quality of journal is out there, fairly 259 00:16:34,610 --> 00:16:37,670 easy thing to Google would be where to publish, and then put 260 00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:40,970 the name of your favorite library, assuming that's us. And 261 00:16:41,090 --> 00:16:43,820 if it's not, then you need to know Rod Library. And this will 262 00:16:43,820 --> 00:16:48,080 link off to a page that has not only more about this topic, but 263 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:52,730 will also go into some depth on how do we evaluate journals, you 264 00:16:52,730 --> 00:16:55,280 know, is this what's the impact of this journal? It's the 265 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,820 quality that's a little more dangerous term. But what what's 266 00:16:58,820 --> 00:17:01,040 the relative impact that these journals have, is this 267 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,120 technically, the journal is this is this a decent journal? And so 268 00:17:05,300 --> 00:17:08,420 we built this, I think, last year as part of our committee's 269 00:17:08,420 --> 00:17:12,800 work. And that gets a good deal more than I'm going to do today. 270 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:17,480 So that is about all I want to talk to, on this topic. Let's 271 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,710 get to the happier news that's associated with open access. And 272 00:17:22,310 --> 00:17:26,450 I forget which of you would like to go next? But you can do that. 273 00:17:26,450 --> 00:17:31,730 And I'm going to quickly switch to not so much any sharing one 274 00:17:31,730 --> 00:17:32,720 second. I'm gonna.. 275 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:37,460 it says stop share. 276 00:17:37,490 --> 00:17:43,190 Oh, it sure does. Let's do that. Yeah, thank it for that. 277 00:17:49,090 --> 00:17:54,250 All right, well, that's kind of stuff started, I would say. So, 278 00:17:54,730 --> 00:17:59,110 I think the one I want to talk about throughout the kind of 279 00:17:59,140 --> 00:18:04,570 scholar's perspective, is several important trends they'll 280 00:18:04,570 --> 00:18:09,250 be in there for publishing in the last decade, or it might be 281 00:18:09,250 --> 00:18:14,260 longer. So one is very important is the pressure to publish the 282 00:18:14,260 --> 00:18:16,480 pressure to publish has dramatically increased even in 283 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,320 my lifetime, which is medium long, I guess, like 10 years 284 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,440 ago, when I've started to do my PhD. And now it's really 285 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:29,350 different universe, for the number and/or quality? That's a 286 00:18:29,410 --> 00:18:32,950 question and it's how we come together. But definitely the 287 00:18:32,980 --> 00:18:36,310 number of publications need to have to be a successful 288 00:18:36,310 --> 00:18:40,630 academic, even for people who are just starting from PhD. So 289 00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:44,770 that's, that's one thing. The second is, of course, the rise 290 00:18:44,770 --> 00:18:50,020 of open access. And as sort of the convergence of the two as 291 00:18:50,050 --> 00:18:55,750 the increasing pressure of of publishing in open access 292 00:18:56,650 --> 00:19:02,590 outlets, they, the pressure comes a lot from a variety of 293 00:19:02,740 --> 00:19:06,340 sites, one of the funding agencies, funding agencies 294 00:19:06,460 --> 00:19:10,180 caught up with the idea, I guess, and now actually, you 295 00:19:10,180 --> 00:19:15,940 will, you actually owe a device to have not required, for 296 00:19:15,940 --> 00:19:18,850 example, a National Science Foundation to have money 297 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,880 allocated for open access publishing in your budget, so 298 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:27,130 that would ensure that whatever you produce, as a scholar 299 00:19:27,130 --> 00:19:30,430 actually is accessible to the general public. That's sort of 300 00:19:31,030 --> 00:19:34,810 the premise of that. So there's no other specification of how 301 00:19:34,810 --> 00:19:38,650 it's going to be but that's the idea that Open Access provides, 302 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:43,030 you know, an ability of whoever the taxpayers are to fund the 303 00:19:43,060 --> 00:19:47,140 research to access the results of this research, which is, of 304 00:19:47,140 --> 00:19:52,750 course, very reasonable a novel goal, but coupled with the 305 00:19:52,750 --> 00:19:56,350 pressure to publish, and having open access sort of creates the 306 00:19:56,350 --> 00:19:59,770 environment in which you know, we need to navigate this new 307 00:19:59,770 --> 00:20:05,740 [inaudible] open access opportunities. So that's that's, 308 00:20:06,190 --> 00:20:09,400 that's this kind of convergence of things that the [inaudible] 309 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,360 open access very well, and when I started to get a lot about 15 310 00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:16,750 years ago, you know, we were not really concerned with open 311 00:20:16,750 --> 00:20:18,850 access. And I would just publish, where we publish our 312 00:20:18,850 --> 00:20:22,570 traditional journals that we all know. And that was normal. And 313 00:20:22,570 --> 00:20:27,670 then then we also noticed at scholars that it's okay, if you 314 00:20:27,670 --> 00:20:31,720 publish in some open access that you are more cited. And that's 315 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,540 because there's access, especially the right the market, 316 00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:41,260 for citations, I can say that word is the China and other 317 00:20:41,350 --> 00:20:43,660 jurisdiction that may have less access to traditional 318 00:20:43,660 --> 00:20:47,620 publishers. So if you don't publish openly, then you're not 319 00:20:48,340 --> 00:20:51,940 going outside it. And now this chain of events in your academic 320 00:20:51,940 --> 00:20:56,080 career that may not be so good, right, so so we've got to be now 321 00:20:56,500 --> 00:21:02,500 also came through the more the merrier size way of assessing 322 00:21:02,500 --> 00:21:06,220 our research, right, the aging curves, and all these other 323 00:21:06,220 --> 00:21:09,310 things that we in the US, thanks, goodness, are not 324 00:21:09,310 --> 00:21:12,520 clinging to. But many European partners. Actually, that's the 325 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,420 main thing that they gave in their salary [inaudible] for our 326 00:21:16,420 --> 00:21:20,680 police increases and salary and the related to the citations 327 00:21:20,830 --> 00:21:24,820 that they get. So that's sort of created that notion that open 328 00:21:24,820 --> 00:21:29,320 access is not only good for the good of the people and taxpayers 329 00:21:29,380 --> 00:21:34,420 and our own satisfaction, and also that it's incentivized, you 330 00:21:34,420 --> 00:21:38,410 know, what you do, right, incentivize you to actually have 331 00:21:39,730 --> 00:21:43,330 access to that and to work in that direction. So I think 332 00:21:43,330 --> 00:21:47,830 that's, that's sort of the landscape that we find ourselves 333 00:21:47,830 --> 00:21:50,710 in. The other factor, I think, probably from a scholarly 334 00:21:50,710 --> 00:21:53,740 perspective, is that it's sort of I would say, the failure that 335 00:21:53,740 --> 00:21:56,680 traditional publishers that actually address that need. 336 00:21:57,130 --> 00:22:00,970 Because, you know, if you are, you know, you go to a well 337 00:22:00,970 --> 00:22:03,670 established traditional publisher and request that oh, 338 00:22:04,300 --> 00:22:08,200 wellthat's right. I mean, that's not the problem, if you have a 339 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,620 lot of money. So at least in my experience, most traditional 340 00:22:11,620 --> 00:22:15,370 publishers have not been competitive, because they 341 00:22:15,370 --> 00:22:17,980 adjusted at least twice, or three or four times more than 342 00:22:17,980 --> 00:22:22,630 just the open access journal. Well, maybe comparable quality, 343 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,490 right? I mean, they were [inaudible] $3,000. You know, 344 00:22:27,490 --> 00:22:30,250 it's in the West, we might have this money, but maybe I 345 00:22:30,250 --> 00:22:32,890 should've have two articles published in another journal 346 00:22:32,980 --> 00:22:36,070 that doesn't have the whole structure that that journal has 347 00:22:36,070 --> 00:22:39,310 to maintain traditional publication operations, and 348 00:22:39,340 --> 00:22:43,060 [inaudible]. Right. And that's, that's the choice that we make, 349 00:22:44,980 --> 00:22:51,250 most feasibility articles with your team. And so the last part 350 00:22:51,250 --> 00:22:55,150 of what, what is going out here, because the publishing has been 351 00:22:55,150 --> 00:22:59,860 a business, which actually, from the scholar perspectives, I've 352 00:22:59,890 --> 00:23:04,360 always been on the top of my mind that could be actually 353 00:23:04,390 --> 00:23:08,770 contributing our intellectual contribution to this, which is 354 00:23:08,770 --> 00:23:12,970 nothing wrong with the business. Of course, maybe it is. But but 355 00:23:12,970 --> 00:23:17,050 the open access, publishing quickly became a business. 356 00:23:17,410 --> 00:23:22,360 That's part of where preditorial past. And because it's a 357 00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:24,820 successful business model. I mean, the volume of everything 358 00:23:24,820 --> 00:23:28,150 has been accredited, there will be obviously existing, the open 359 00:23:28,150 --> 00:23:32,290 access publishers without ties to old fashioned or traditional 360 00:23:32,290 --> 00:23:34,690 publisher, they exist, and they are successful, but it is 361 00:23:34,690 --> 00:23:39,760 working for them. So what's become really vivid to me 362 00:23:39,970 --> 00:23:43,240 recently, more recently, so in the beginning, oh, great. We 363 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:47,800 have this opportunity. Now, it's gotta be available, and people 364 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,500 can read it like anybody wants. I mean, I work a lot with 365 00:23:50,500 --> 00:23:53,650 communities, and the Arctic, they don't have a library, like 366 00:23:53,650 --> 00:23:58,060 have access to it, or cannot read the traditional published 367 00:23:58,060 --> 00:24:01,210 thing, because it's expensive. And so they just have no idea 368 00:24:01,210 --> 00:24:03,790 whatsoever. So here we go, they just didn't have [inaudible] 369 00:24:03,790 --> 00:24:10,240 excellent. And what happened is that some of this open access 370 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:15,880 journals were very successful. And then, what I kind of notice 371 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,350 is that they slowly sliding down the scale towards it, you know, 372 00:24:20,350 --> 00:24:22,870 the preditorial publisher that you described with really 373 00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:27,160 vividly predatory. But what my concern actually is, is this 374 00:24:27,190 --> 00:24:32,500 underlining predatorial because partially based on the business 375 00:24:32,500 --> 00:24:36,070 model, and so to the beginner really [inaudible] doing 376 00:24:36,130 --> 00:24:38,920 thorough peer reviews, they do have real editorial boards and 377 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,620 everything. It's all real. Not like it's fake, it's, it's 378 00:24:41,620 --> 00:24:43,870 there, and then beginning they're doing real good job and 379 00:24:43,870 --> 00:24:48,070 they get reputation. And people publish, but then as the time 380 00:24:48,070 --> 00:24:51,460 goes, they become so immersed in that market, and they're 381 00:24:51,460 --> 00:24:54,250 becoming so successful, they want more and more than more and 382 00:24:54,250 --> 00:24:57,520 that's kind of the quality starts to go down and you find 383 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:04,060 yourself in a situation when you check and think that while you 384 00:25:04,060 --> 00:25:06,940 thought about it you actually published in a journal two years 385 00:25:06,940 --> 00:25:10,840 ago. And it was a really good thing. And now it come back, of 386 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,910 course. And obviously, of course, I've worked with it. But 387 00:25:12,910 --> 00:25:18,820 this is different, or slightly different. And so what you have 388 00:25:18,820 --> 00:25:22,000 is that you're not sure where to begin. If you say, okay, there's 389 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,970 a portable publication. But what published the article, am I 390 00:25:24,970 --> 00:25:28,420 saying that what I did have was actually should not be 391 00:25:28,810 --> 00:25:32,920 legitimate? But I think at the time of what it was, and then 392 00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:36,430 now it's maybe, but it's a difficult decision, I think, 393 00:25:36,670 --> 00:25:40,270 again, especially for mainline open access journals that have 394 00:25:40,270 --> 00:25:44,080 been there. And that's, that's familiar to all of us just like 395 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:45,760 our old fashioned journals, though, we all know that 396 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:50,680 everybody reads that. So. So for me, that's actually the main 397 00:25:50,710 --> 00:25:55,180 main port of concern and open access, right?Now, how do we 398 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,370 judge in value? And how do we also again, measure it against 399 00:26:00,370 --> 00:26:06,130 our own experience? So as you know, I've been also doing the 400 00:26:06,670 --> 00:26:10,720 gap editing and things like that. And so I've been doing it 401 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,620 for the traditional journals and some of the openings of 402 00:26:14,620 --> 00:26:18,850 business, they are so good, because they, I mean, they 403 00:26:18,850 --> 00:26:21,760 provide you with a person who just does a lot of things for 404 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:27,100 you, for example, sends an email this sort of the intermediate 405 00:26:27,100 --> 00:26:29,710 emails, and oh, for example, with HR review, or if they just 406 00:26:29,710 --> 00:26:34,000 send it then they received notes and they sent down the list, not 407 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,610 miss me will be no, they all that. So it's very convenient. 408 00:26:36,610 --> 00:26:40,360 So that's great. And then the problem is the reviewers are 409 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:44,230 spastic as incentives for them to review. And it's okay, if you 410 00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:47,290 review three articles, you can publish for free in our journal. 411 00:26:47,980 --> 00:26:50,410 Okay, there's something something going on. Okay. So 412 00:26:50,410 --> 00:26:53,410 three weeks, four weeks time, and that's unheard of for a 413 00:26:53,410 --> 00:26:58,360 traditional publisher. So those dated structures that they're so 414 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:02,380 good generally, actually, they're always a dark side, 415 00:27:02,590 --> 00:27:06,430 right? I mean, am I agreeing to review because I mean, other 416 00:27:06,430 --> 00:27:09,010 than my salary, but because they know they gotta get it, it's 417 00:27:09,010 --> 00:27:13,810 kind of like, okay, that's fine. You know. So that's a decision 418 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,160 that they can do things that at least for my generation of 419 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:24,490 scholars are not not very easy to sort of prepare the students 420 00:27:24,490 --> 00:27:27,640 correctly, and we've maybe not them. I know, when we talk, my 421 00:27:27,670 --> 00:27:36,070 calls are losing channels. You know, so I'm, like, current 422 00:27:36,070 --> 00:27:39,100 experience have a drop, let me add a special issue. And that's 423 00:27:39,130 --> 00:27:41,470 the oldest issue like it's really just withdrawing 424 00:27:42,430 --> 00:27:45,820 congenially. Finish it, you know, these are just things that 425 00:27:45,850 --> 00:27:49,300 that are on your mind that you don't have a good answer, I 426 00:27:49,300 --> 00:27:53,200 think discussion on is very important. Open discussions 427 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,350 about it. And open this guy was binding, he says, okay, yeah, so 428 00:27:56,350 --> 00:28:01,090 the open access, but how do we fulfill that mandate, but also 429 00:28:01,090 --> 00:28:04,810 keep academic integrity, academic freedom, and all other 430 00:28:04,810 --> 00:28:10,690 things, and also maybe convey to the more established living, 431 00:28:11,020 --> 00:28:16,780 maybe doing more in terms of helping us to fulfill those 432 00:28:16,780 --> 00:28:19,990 mandates that we have from our institutions or agencies to do 433 00:28:19,990 --> 00:28:24,010 this open access? So I know, I think it's, it's about my 434 00:28:24,010 --> 00:28:26,800 knowledge of how the published work, but that's sort of the 435 00:28:27,190 --> 00:28:30,880 narrow, narrow perspective I have. But at the same time, what 436 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,790 I see is that there are other ways of doing things without 437 00:28:34,060 --> 00:28:38,050 implementing this business model that while 438 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,290 helping in some ways to promote open access also as the dark 439 00:28:39,410 --> 00:28:40,670 side. So that's why it was a very opportune moment to invite 440 00:28:40,670 --> 00:28:41,870 Dr. Lassi Heininen has been actually the editor of an open 441 00:28:41,870 --> 00:28:54,650 access free publication that anybody, well, yeah, anybody, 442 00:28:56,930 --> 00:29:01,940 not just even scholars, but anybody could submit, and get 443 00:29:01,940 --> 00:29:06,230 full peer review, and get it published and actually create 444 00:29:06,230 --> 00:29:09,980 quite a vast back pressure within a year. It's a lot. And 445 00:29:09,980 --> 00:29:13,820 it's a it's a respected publication in our research 446 00:29:13,820 --> 00:29:17,990 community. It's not really on any other research forum, right. 447 00:29:17,990 --> 00:29:20,870 But I mean, it's not really attached to the institution or 448 00:29:20,870 --> 00:29:25,640 university. But it is something that we all respect, this this 449 00:29:26,030 --> 00:29:30,740 model of publishing, that is not involved with a lot of money 450 00:29:31,220 --> 00:29:36,590 actually require some self sacrifice on the part of data, 451 00:29:36,590 --> 00:29:41,930 that's maybe a good example of how open access will be done in 452 00:29:41,930 --> 00:29:45,980 a way that is not heavy and a dark side. So I guess I'll give 453 00:29:45,980 --> 00:29:48,470 an opportunity to Lassi to talk about his experience. 454 00:29:48,630 --> 00:29:53,820 Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Absolutely, this is 455 00:29:53,820 --> 00:29:58,470 very important topic. But I have to say in the very beginning 456 00:29:58,470 --> 00:30:03,330 that that I I'm a total amateur, when it comes comes to 457 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,220 publishing, I mean, I really started the article simply 458 00:30:08,250 --> 00:30:14,280 because I mean as scholars, because there was more and more 459 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:19,980 voices from from our students, or the group of BSD candidates, 460 00:30:20,100 --> 00:30:26,580 we are saying that that these publications, journals are 461 00:30:26,580 --> 00:30:29,610 becoming more and more expensive. So that even 462 00:30:29,610 --> 00:30:34,380 University Libraries cannot have money to order those, which they 463 00:30:34,380 --> 00:30:38,550 used to order earlier. And they have, they have become more 464 00:30:38,550 --> 00:30:45,030 selective, and and the same message from the students. So 465 00:30:45,060 --> 00:30:49,290 then, that was anyway, okay, so should we do something for this? 466 00:30:49,740 --> 00:30:53,040 Or not? Then we decided we should do something for this. 467 00:30:53,490 --> 00:30:59,790 And then we started to publish something called the Arctic 468 00:30:59,790 --> 00:31:10,020 Yearbook, which is a yearbook. So it comes once a year. But but 469 00:31:10,020 --> 00:31:17,220 so that that it is, is each year, there's a different theme. 470 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:25,920 Like, last year, it was the the Redefining Mapping the of 471 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:32,280 Arctic: Policies and Projections, and this year, it 472 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:39,510 is the Russian Arctic, Policies, Economies and Peoples. So and, 473 00:31:40,830 --> 00:31:46,380 okay. It was very interesting to listen what you said, and also 474 00:31:46,380 --> 00:31:50,940 what Andrey said, because, of course, I have heard of from 475 00:31:51,180 --> 00:31:55,230 strong point of view, more or less I know this, but what you 476 00:31:55,230 --> 00:31:59,220 said, I have heard already, so little bit about these, these 477 00:31:59,220 --> 00:32:03,480 dark sides, and, and something like that, maybe I have denied 478 00:32:04,830 --> 00:32:09,390 not to be not to put more attention to that. Because I 479 00:32:09,390 --> 00:32:13,560 also review a lot articles, manuscripts by internal 480 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:18,540 journals, and book project talks of these commercial publishing 481 00:32:18,540 --> 00:32:24,000 houses. I mean, now when I retired a lot, reviews. And so 482 00:32:24,060 --> 00:32:28,110 that is, why I'm doing this, they don't pay anything to me, 483 00:32:28,110 --> 00:32:32,340 they impress me that, while we would like to have your review 484 00:32:32,340 --> 00:32:38,400 today or tomorrow, right, it's that extra pressure to me. But 485 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,390 then, of course, I mean, okay, where my younger colleagues can 486 00:32:42,390 --> 00:32:48,090 have their their research published. So they need 487 00:32:48,930 --> 00:32:53,910 platforms for that. And then that is the driving force. But I 488 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,660 am not sure if how long I will continue this, when they start 489 00:32:57,660 --> 00:33:01,980 to become too demanding. It's good that they will take one of 490 00:33:01,980 --> 00:33:06,870 my fingers, but not the whole lot. They're not gonna stop. But 491 00:33:06,900 --> 00:33:12,360 but then, of course, then we have that our own publication. 492 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,450 And maybe, 493 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:24,300 maybe it's much easier for us. Because we pay don't ask money, 494 00:33:24,330 --> 00:33:29,760 we don't have money. We don't need money. So money is not at 495 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:35,160 all a factor when we do this. And so we are free of all this 496 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:44,400 work, you described, all these dark sides or to solve problems 497 00:33:46,830 --> 00:33:52,140 in the rocks there. But I mean, this is simply because in the 498 00:33:52,140 --> 00:33:56,280 very beginning, the driving force and open acts, so that's 499 00:33:56,310 --> 00:34:01,320 very true. And we took it only as a positive thing. That was 500 00:34:01,350 --> 00:34:09,600 absolutely the driving force. And like I said, yes, 501 00:34:09,930 --> 00:34:14,490 absolutely. It's for for for whoever is interested in can go 502 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:22,260 and and read or take your one article or more articles. So the 503 00:34:22,260 --> 00:34:28,200 scale. So we have had 10 publications out altogether, 504 00:34:28,830 --> 00:34:35,550 three, two or three, 230 scholarly articles and about 140 505 00:34:37,740 --> 00:34:43,860 commentaries. We are the leading publication on Arctic covenants, 506 00:34:43,890 --> 00:34:49,290 Arctic IR in relation to Arctic shipping, and few other fields. 507 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:55,410 Repeat all the commercial journals or publishing houses. 508 00:34:56,580 --> 00:35:01,230 And we did that already after after the first to seven, eight 509 00:35:01,230 --> 00:35:08,040 years. And now the next one is coming. After a few weeks. There 510 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:13,140 we have nine scholarly articles which went through the process. 511 00:35:13,650 --> 00:35:19,980 And I mean, think about the theme, the rationale, decided 512 00:35:19,980 --> 00:35:25,470 that last December, all these things started to become really 513 00:35:25,470 --> 00:35:30,840 bad. And it's a combination of Russian and non Russian authors. 514 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:37,470 So, that is going to be the first and for some time, the 515 00:35:37,470 --> 00:35:42,030 only scientific publication where you have had this kind of 516 00:35:42,030 --> 00:35:48,540 discussion by Russian and non Russian scholars on issues which 517 00:35:48,540 --> 00:35:53,160 are okay with the boy issue, but the boy is not at all the main 518 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,370 issue there that it's much more like climate change, governance, 519 00:35:56,730 --> 00:36:00,930 many other other issues, which are, which we have before and 520 00:36:00,930 --> 00:36:06,660 after. And so it's so. Okay, so how this all this first was? 521 00:36:08,070 --> 00:36:16,350 Okay, we we are motivated to do like I said, guess. But then 522 00:36:16,410 --> 00:36:20,520 also because we have networks, we have the needed networks. 523 00:36:23,430 --> 00:36:27,450 Thematic Network on Geopolitical Security, which is the 524 00:36:27,450 --> 00:36:34,710 publisher, so we have 80 experts all over the world as members of 525 00:36:35,010 --> 00:36:38,520 the network. So they are contributors, but they are also 526 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:43,950 reviewers. So, we can do a review process during a summer. 527 00:36:44,370 --> 00:36:48,630 Summertime, because they, and then I send a message to them 528 00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:56,100 all day, okay. Maybe I should I do only this one. I said, Why is 529 00:36:56,100 --> 00:36:59,940 he exactly what you would like to have from you. So I mean, 530 00:36:59,940 --> 00:37:02,550 without these networks, and personal production, so of 531 00:37:02,550 --> 00:37:07,530 course, it wouldn't be possible. So we are fast because of this. 532 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:13,260 And we are not depending on on on any any institutions there. 533 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,780 And then we have the other network, which is that there are 534 00:37:18,780 --> 00:37:24,300 those who would like to publish. And we our reputation is good. I 535 00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:27,330 would say that the quality is good. Of course, they cannot 536 00:37:27,330 --> 00:37:32,970 compare. Because I mean, before open access and after, because 537 00:37:32,970 --> 00:37:36,240 we have been open with open access all the time. But I would 538 00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:40,830 say that the quality is really good. Because our articles are 539 00:37:40,830 --> 00:37:50,970 used. Good, quoted a lot. And so and I mean, also, we've got so 540 00:37:50,970 --> 00:37:57,600 many abstracts in when we have the call out. That is first of 541 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:04,440 course that if you have 50 to 60 abstracts, then you can have 20, 542 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:10,710 25 high quality articles at the end of the day. Of course, we 543 00:38:10,710 --> 00:38:16,590 have all the time double blind review. And we are very careful 544 00:38:16,590 --> 00:38:21,120 there with that. So the credibility will be all the time 545 00:38:21,450 --> 00:38:22,350 is with us. 546 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:32,770 You receive the effort and obligation then you review. I 547 00:38:32,770 --> 00:38:36,310 would never say no to your work. And maybe a science, that's an 548 00:38:36,310 --> 00:38:40,030 expensive journalism, they'll say no. But that's that's I 549 00:38:40,030 --> 00:38:42,220 think maybe an alternative to 550 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,880 Very interesting. And I hope we'll have time for some 551 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,540 questions, because I don't usually hear of science journals 552 00:38:51,570 --> 00:39:00,450 that don't stay home charge anything for that. So it's about 553 00:39:00,450 --> 00:39:07,500 the size. So, okay, are you gonna drive it for me? Okay. All 554 00:39:07,270 --> 00:39:11,137 Okay, so this is another another aspect of this, of any kind of 555 00:39:07,500 --> 00:39:07,800 right. 556 00:39:11,199 --> 00:39:15,067 publishing is how to reach your publication agreement. And this 557 00:39:15,128 --> 00:39:18,935 is applies both to open access and traditional non open access 558 00:39:18,996 --> 00:39:22,680 publishing, so. Okay. Which, look, there we go. There we go. 559 00:39:22,741 --> 00:39:26,302 Okay, so just really brief on copyright, because I'm doing 560 00:39:26,363 --> 00:39:30,047 Copyright 101 tomorrow. So if you want more about this, tune 561 00:39:30,109 --> 00:39:33,792 in tomorrow for that, but just a few basics about copyright. 562 00:39:33,854 --> 00:39:37,599 First of all, the government is basically protecting your own 563 00:39:37,660 --> 00:39:41,405 limited monopoly over your work in exchange for it eventually 564 00:39:41,467 --> 00:39:45,396 going into the public domain. It takes a long time to get in the 565 00:39:45,457 --> 00:39:49,018 public domain, but that's basically what this agreement is 566 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,579 all about. Copyright exists automatically from the moment 567 00:39:52,641 --> 00:39:56,263 that the item is created. I mean, you write a grocery list, 568 00:39:56,324 --> 00:40:00,315 that's copyrighted, this was not the case before 1976, you had to 569 00:40:00,376 --> 00:40:04,367 register your copyright that and or put the little copyright mark 570 00:40:04,428 --> 00:40:08,419 on it, you don't have to do that anymore. You can pay to register 571 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,164 your copyright. But for almost anybody that's not important. 572 00:40:12,226 --> 00:40:15,541 That's if you're afraid somebody's going to scoop you, 573 00:40:15,602 --> 00:40:19,163 and you've got something that's going to bring in a lot of 574 00:40:19,225 --> 00:40:22,479 money. Otherwise, you don't worry about that. So it's 575 00:40:22,540 --> 00:40:26,162 copyright, the minute you've got it written down, fixed and 576 00:40:26,224 --> 00:40:29,785 tangible format, is that the term you want to use? So what 577 00:40:29,846 --> 00:40:33,653 can be copyrighted? That was the function things here. They're 578 00:40:33,714 --> 00:40:36,968 all defined in the law. What we're concerned about is 579 00:40:37,029 --> 00:40:40,652 basically a literary work if you're talking about a journal 580 00:40:40,713 --> 00:40:44,151 article. All right. So now, here, we're getting into the 581 00:40:44,212 --> 00:40:47,712 important stuff, what rights do you have as the copyright 582 00:40:47,773 --> 00:40:51,703 holder? What rights do you have over your own work, you have the 583 00:40:51,764 --> 00:40:55,202 right to reproduce the work to prepare derivative works, 584 00:40:55,264 --> 00:40:58,640 distribute the work, perform it publicly, or display it 585 00:40:58,702 --> 00:41:02,017 publicly. So this PowerPoint presentation is in part a 586 00:41:02,078 --> 00:41:05,824 derivative work based on a book I wrote in 2004. My publisher 587 00:41:05,885 --> 00:41:09,691 has the right to reproduce that whole work, but I retained the 588 00:41:09,753 --> 00:41:13,682 rights to do public presentation like this, for example. So what 589 00:41:13,744 --> 00:41:17,366 can you do with these rights? So it's a bundle of different 590 00:41:17,427 --> 00:41:21,172 rights that you have. And the way publishing works is you can 591 00:41:21,234 --> 00:41:25,040 sign over one or more of these rights to other parties. So you 592 00:41:25,102 --> 00:41:28,970 can sign the book rights over to one person and the film rights 593 00:41:29,031 --> 00:41:32,592 over to another, there are various things you can do. Now, 594 00:41:32,653 --> 00:41:36,337 this is limited by first sale doctrine, this is kind of this 595 00:41:36,398 --> 00:41:40,143 is how libraries work. This is how, you know booksellers, DVD 596 00:41:40,205 --> 00:41:44,011 kiosks, that kind of thing, the thing to think of is container 597 00:41:44,073 --> 00:41:48,063 versus content. So when somebody buys the container that has your 598 00:41:48,125 --> 00:41:51,993 content in it, when they buy a book, they can lend it out, they 599 00:41:52,054 --> 00:41:55,738 can resell it, everything like that, that doesn't affect the 600 00:41:55,799 --> 00:41:59,360 content, which is what you have the rights over. Okay. All 601 00:41:59,422 --> 00:42:03,105 right. So it gets into a kind of a gray area with electronic 602 00:42:03,167 --> 00:42:06,666 materials, but we're not going to go into that right now. 603 00:42:06,728 --> 00:42:09,982 Because it gets really complicated. So you can easily 604 00:42:10,043 --> 00:42:13,420 you've probably seen things about libraries and loaning 605 00:42:13,481 --> 00:42:17,165 electronic books, and so on. That's where that all comes in. 606 00:42:17,226 --> 00:42:20,480 Okay, the other thing that limits your rights, as the 607 00:42:20,542 --> 00:42:24,102 copyright holder is Fair Use exceptions. That's what gives 608 00:42:24,164 --> 00:42:27,725 other people the right to use some parts of your work in a 609 00:42:27,786 --> 00:42:31,347 fair way. So if somebody's writing a review of a book that 610 00:42:31,408 --> 00:42:34,908 you wrote, they can quote from it to a certain extent, if 611 00:42:34,969 --> 00:42:37,855 somebody is using your scholarship in their own 612 00:42:37,916 --> 00:42:41,539 scholarship, they can quote to it from a certain extent. So 613 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,222 this, I'll talk about that the whole fair use package a lot 614 00:42:45,284 --> 00:42:48,906 more in Copyright 101. So if you're interested in that come 615 00:42:48,967 --> 00:42:52,774 to that tomorrow. All right. So and we get to where you have a 616 00:42:52,835 --> 00:42:56,212 contract. So you've got an article, you've sent it off, 617 00:42:56,273 --> 00:42:59,957 you've you've checked out your publisher, make sure that the 618 00:43:00,019 --> 00:43:04,009 journal that you want to publish it in is good and not predatory. 619 00:43:04,071 --> 00:43:07,632 You've dealt with any open access fees there might have to 620 00:43:07,693 --> 00:43:11,315 deal with, and you've got a contract in your hand. What are 621 00:43:11,377 --> 00:43:14,999 you looking at, when you look there, you're looking at what 622 00:43:15,060 --> 00:43:18,683 rights you're signing over to the publisher and what rights 623 00:43:18,744 --> 00:43:22,735 you were changed, it's important to retain as many of your rights 624 00:43:22,796 --> 00:43:26,603 as you possibly can. Because as a scholar, you're going to use 625 00:43:26,664 --> 00:43:30,102 your own work over and over again, in the course of your 626 00:43:30,164 --> 00:43:33,970 career, you don't want to sign away your right to use your own 627 00:43:34,032 --> 00:43:37,715 work. So even though it's very tempting, even though there's 628 00:43:37,777 --> 00:43:41,522 this huge pressure to publish, you've got to be careful about 629 00:43:41,583 --> 00:43:45,451 this kind of thing. Don't just sign it and send it back. So you 630 00:43:45,512 --> 00:43:48,889 want to look for anything that says you're signing over 631 00:43:48,951 --> 00:43:52,327 copyright. I just got, I was working on a project on an 632 00:43:52,389 --> 00:43:56,318 encyclopedia entry and I got the contract from the publisher and 633 00:43:56,379 --> 00:44:00,309 it says you're signing over your rights lesson. No, I don't need 634 00:44:00,370 --> 00:44:03,992 you. You need more me more than I need you. So I said no to 635 00:44:04,054 --> 00:44:07,860 that. Ideally, the publisher is only going to use that work in 636 00:44:07,922 --> 00:44:11,237 that specific publication. So that the journal I edit, 637 00:44:11,298 --> 00:44:14,614 Mythlore, it says very specifically, what we are going 638 00:44:14,675 --> 00:44:18,175 to do with your publication. We're going to publish it in 639 00:44:18,236 --> 00:44:21,674 this issue in print and electronic format is going to be 640 00:44:21,736 --> 00:44:25,358 on our website. Anything else that you ever want to do with 641 00:44:25,419 --> 00:44:29,226 it, you can do with it, you can republish it in your own book, 642 00:44:29,287 --> 00:44:32,971 whatever you'd like to do. Some publishers might have a time 643 00:44:33,032 --> 00:44:36,716 limit, they might say, you can do whatever you want with it. 644 00:44:36,777 --> 00:44:40,768 After 24 months, you know, after it's been out in our journal for 645 00:44:40,829 --> 00:44:44,759 this amount of time, do whatever you like for it. That's not too 646 00:44:44,820 --> 00:44:48,688 bad. That's pretty good. As long as you can still like teach it 647 00:44:48,749 --> 00:44:52,433 in the classroom or something like that, you should be okay. 648 00:44:52,495 --> 00:44:56,178 Let's see. Having the right to self archive or post it in an 649 00:44:56,240 --> 00:44:59,555 institution institutional repository like ScholarWorks 650 00:44:59,616 --> 00:45:03,423 here, that's very important, it is becoming more important for 651 00:45:03,484 --> 00:45:07,168 some of the same issues you talked about with open access is 652 00:45:07,229 --> 00:45:10,913 access to people who may not have access to a library access 653 00:45:10,975 --> 00:45:14,535 for people in in developing countries where they might not 654 00:45:14,597 --> 00:45:17,912 have a library that has everything they need. Just the 655 00:45:17,974 --> 00:45:21,780 wider dissemination, the wider being cited, and so on. So it's 656 00:45:21,841 --> 00:45:25,587 important to retain your rights to put it in an institutional 657 00:45:25,648 --> 00:45:29,025 repository or on your own website. So next thing, SPARC 658 00:45:29,086 --> 00:45:32,217 addendum, and we saw the word SPARC in your in your 659 00:45:32,279 --> 00:45:35,840 presentation earlier, Chris. The SPARC addendum is a model 660 00:45:35,901 --> 00:45:39,707 contract, that gives you a good checklist to go through to see 661 00:45:39,769 --> 00:45:43,760 if what you're signing, lets you retain the rights that you need. 662 00:45:43,821 --> 00:45:47,443 Okay, so you can work through a a contract clause by clause 663 00:45:47,505 --> 00:45:51,311 using the SPARC addendum, just to see what you're signing, you 664 00:45:51,373 --> 00:45:55,179 can use the whole SPARC data, you can rewrite it, you can, you 665 00:45:55,240 --> 00:45:58,986 know, penciled in on the on the contract, and send it back to 666 00:45:59,047 --> 00:46:02,976 your publisher, and then it's up to your publisher to respond to 667 00:46:03,038 --> 00:46:06,660 that. What if they absolutely won't budge? What if they say 668 00:46:06,721 --> 00:46:10,344 this is the only way we do it, we're not going to do it any 669 00:46:10,405 --> 00:46:14,150 other way? Well, first of all, consider whether that's really 670 00:46:14,212 --> 00:46:18,141 where you want to publish, maybe it is maybe you absolutely have 671 00:46:18,202 --> 00:46:21,702 to get published in this particular journal or something, 672 00:46:21,763 --> 00:46:25,324 for some reason, but really thinking of your future career 673 00:46:25,385 --> 00:46:29,069 is very important year, there are some very good negotiating 674 00:46:29,131 --> 00:46:32,876 tips on that SPARC website. So if you've run across something 675 00:46:32,937 --> 00:46:36,621 where your publishers being difficult, and you still want to 676 00:46:36,682 --> 00:46:39,998 publish with them, use those negotiating tips. And the 677 00:46:40,059 --> 00:46:43,743 website is there. If you want to look at these slides later, 678 00:46:43,804 --> 00:46:47,426 there are a couple of other resources as well. So the first 679 00:46:47,488 --> 00:46:51,478 time in your career that you get a publishing contract, you might 680 00:46:51,540 --> 00:46:54,978 want to sit down with a colleague who's published a lot, 681 00:46:55,039 --> 00:46:58,662 or even the lawyer and make sure you understand what you're 682 00:46:58,723 --> 00:47:02,468 signing, there's a lot you can do on your own a lot more than 683 00:47:02,530 --> 00:47:06,459 there used to be, I wish I'd had some of these resources. When I 684 00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,204 signed for my first book, I'm still trying to get the rights 685 00:47:10,265 --> 00:47:13,090 back for that. So I could do a second edition. 686 00:47:14,470 --> 00:47:18,190 One final thing, I would want to say, keep records of all this 687 00:47:18,190 --> 00:47:21,970 stuff, when you get a contract, keep your record because someday 688 00:47:21,970 --> 00:47:24,280 you are going to want to use your stuff and you want to have 689 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,490 that contract. So you can look at it. If you put it in an 690 00:47:27,490 --> 00:47:31,000 institutional repository, they might need see that before they 691 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:36,190 can post it. So keep all these records together. And I have my 692 00:47:36,190 --> 00:47:39,580 favorite ways of doing it. But it's you know, keep those files 693 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:43,480 where you can find them easily. Okay, and there's some of the 694 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,720 resources I talked about Spark addendum, there's a spark 695 00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:49,720 scholars copyrighted Denden engine which I ran across, which 696 00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:53,200 is nice, it'll kind of write it for you understand your rights 697 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:57,430 as an author, book contracts a bit more specialized useful to 698 00:47:57,430 --> 00:48:00,850 look at that, too. They've got their differences. And Sherpa 699 00:48:00,850 --> 00:48:04,600 Romeo is one place where you can look up copyright and open 700 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:09,070 access policies for some journals before you even submit 701 00:48:09,070 --> 00:48:12,490 anything to them. A lot of journals will have a sample 702 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,060 agreement on their website you can look at but that's not. Not 703 00:48:16,060 --> 00:48:19,510 everyone does that. So if you're looking Sherpa Romeo, you may be 704 00:48:19,510 --> 00:48:24,550 able to find there. And then if you go to these slides later, 705 00:48:24,550 --> 00:48:27,910 there's some some that I've got links to that you can practice, 706 00:48:27,910 --> 00:48:32,680 you could look at them and see does this is this publication 707 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:34,750 where I would be happy to publish or is this something 708 00:48:34,750 --> 00:48:39,700 where I would be limiting my rights in the future? So I've 709 00:48:39,700 --> 00:48:43,420 got a couple here, Mythlore is the one I edit and I'm very 710 00:48:43,420 --> 00:48:47,050 conscious of this, that I always tell people when they get their 711 00:48:47,050 --> 00:48:50,170 contract, here's what we're doing. Here's what you can do, 712 00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:54,520 so that they'll know in the future. So and that was really 713 00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:58,540 quick, went through it quick. So if you want to lead this 714 00:48:58,540 --> 00:48:59,020 discussion? 715 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:01,570 I can work on that if you'd like? 716 00:49:02,470 --> 00:49:05,440 That's all I can butcher so you can have a 717 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:10,550 We have a few minutes yet? Well, that was a real whirlwind tour. 718 00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:14,180 I certainly learned a few things. I'm really glad you two 719 00:49:14,300 --> 00:49:18,080 came along on this for some other perspectives. There's 720 00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:22,670 anybody in the audience have anything they'd like to ask of 721 00:49:22,670 --> 00:49:28,910 anybody on that because we covered that real quickly. A 722 00:49:28,910 --> 00:49:32,900 little screen change there. I know I have a few but I'd rather 723 00:49:32,900 --> 00:49:34,070 have the rest of the audience... 724 00:49:38,300 --> 00:49:44,210 I guess I wonder with the open access journals, if they if the 725 00:49:44,210 --> 00:49:47,660 different model suggests a different kind of sustainability 726 00:49:47,660 --> 00:49:53,750 for those publications, if they depend upon a community versus 727 00:49:53,750 --> 00:49:59,690 an institutional or economic model and the enthusiasm of that 728 00:49:59,690 --> 00:50:06,560 community ebbs and flows, how do you see that? Maybe it's early 729 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:13,100 in the game to know, long term, but do you see safeguards 730 00:50:13,100 --> 00:50:23,810 against? Or to uphold the sustainabilities? Yeah. 731 00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:36,200 Started, thank you. I think that in our case, be we we are 732 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,410 thinking, our community or communities in the very 733 00:50:39,410 --> 00:50:42,650 beginning, but more and more now, by becoming more 734 00:50:42,650 --> 00:50:49,070 independent. And so that it's, I know that there is something 735 00:50:49,610 --> 00:50:57,110 called decentralized autonomous organizations, which is 736 00:50:57,110 --> 00:51:00,560 something what is happening in internet very much. This is 737 00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:05,810 about creating new models for decision making, for example. So 738 00:51:05,810 --> 00:51:09,200 of course, I mean, the Arctic Yearbook is not something like 739 00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:15,020 that, per se, but but there are some features, which are exactly 740 00:51:15,050 --> 00:51:19,760 the same. And one is that we are independent. I mean, we are not 741 00:51:19,790 --> 00:51:24,920 depending on you do that for our communities for the network's. 742 00:51:25,100 --> 00:51:30,380 But we are not depending on on even even, depending on those 743 00:51:30,380 --> 00:51:35,090 institutions, where I've retired now, but but my colleagues are 744 00:51:35,090 --> 00:51:39,800 still at, we did that with a purpose in the very beginning. 745 00:51:40,100 --> 00:51:43,640 So if you wish, this is an alternative way to do things, 746 00:51:43,670 --> 00:51:46,820 and we have been conscious, of course, all the time to know 747 00:51:46,820 --> 00:51:49,910 that this is something what commercial publishing houses, 748 00:51:49,970 --> 00:51:56,060 they don't like, you know that all the time. But I mean, that 749 00:51:56,060 --> 00:51:59,300 is not the driving force. For us, the driving force is the 750 00:51:59,300 --> 00:52:06,380 need to have high quality articles so that students and 751 00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:11,180 researchers would have an access. And of course, then 752 00:52:11,180 --> 00:52:15,590 other I didn't mention that. But I mean, our articles are much 753 00:52:15,590 --> 00:52:19,400 used by policymakers, the different levels, this is 754 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,880 something that is more and more common, we hear that they say, 755 00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,000 oh, yeah, have use it, it's so practical, when you have a 756 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:30,890 library? Like I said, 200, 250 scholarly articles covering all 757 00:52:30,890 --> 00:52:34,250 the possible things dealing with the Arctic it's there, waiting 758 00:52:34,250 --> 00:52:34,640 for you? 759 00:52:37,860 --> 00:52:44,760 When you know, I think one of the other things to keep in mind 760 00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:49,920 is just nothing lasts forever. While some things do, you know, 761 00:52:49,950 --> 00:52:54,870 science and nature have been one. But there are journals that 762 00:52:54,870 --> 00:52:59,100 have been published on this campus. Shepard in a few of them 763 00:52:59,100 --> 00:53:02,790 into ScholarWorks, I think you'd find that in many universities, 764 00:53:03,180 --> 00:53:06,360 enthusiasts get out there. I think they don't have as big a 765 00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,720 network as you have. That's a problem. But you get a very 766 00:53:09,720 --> 00:53:15,240 enthused editor. And for a few years, there's a bright, shining 767 00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,920 moment, probably open access, I think in many cases, these would 768 00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:26,640 be. But if that editor leaves, or is not available anymore than 769 00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:30,240 sois, who's going to carry the torch next. And that's been a 770 00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:33,510 problem, you know, where you've had something that that was 771 00:53:33,510 --> 00:53:39,390 really high quality was working well. And then a few key 772 00:53:39,390 --> 00:53:43,470 individuals are no longer there. And that's so some of the larger 773 00:53:43,470 --> 00:53:45,900 than network, I think something that you've got there as, 774 00:53:46,290 --> 00:53:49,050 although that's also a lot of work. But I think if you'd have 775 00:53:49,050 --> 00:53:51,810 a big enough network, and there's a lot of people 776 00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,290 interested in it, I think also, because that's maybe one of the 777 00:53:55,290 --> 00:54:00,930 top journals in the field. That helps a good bit. But commercial 778 00:54:00,930 --> 00:54:05,760 journals also come and go sometimes, because whatever 779 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,180 their focus is, is no longer picked on and maybe there's just 780 00:54:09,180 --> 00:54:13,260 too many journals in the world. For the buyer systems, there's 781 00:54:13,260 --> 00:54:15,930 always possibilities like Elsevier, we don't need five 782 00:54:15,930 --> 00:54:20,100 more journals that each cost $2,000 apiece, now and that the 783 00:54:20,100 --> 00:54:24,660 market will take care of that. But yeah, the ephemeral 784 00:54:25,290 --> 00:54:29,940 situation. It's not just that other part of the internet, 785 00:54:29,940 --> 00:54:34,800 unfortunately, I think even with with publishing, that's an 786 00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:38,870 I have a question but I know that we're running out and the 787 00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,090 extent that's something we have to 788 00:54:38,870 --> 00:54:42,200 next session starts at three. 789 00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:52,380 So folks, please give a round of applause. Thanks